Cam Belt Replacement

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by lupo1972

Ok - just got confused about the translation - I found here:

Timing Belt - Zahnriemen
Cambelt - translated also Zahnriemen
accessory belt - ? = "v-belt", drives generator, power steering, ....

I would appreciate if someone could help me with the technical translation and with the interval to change:

Timing Belt same as Cam Belt as you wrote above yourself - I think I gave good & clear recommendation based on my experience and garage recommendations - of course you can ask others too
Cam Belt is timing belt
Accesory Belt - replaced together with cam belt

For all 3 the German and technical translation/function and the time to change (Years or Km) and please also which of those belts need to get a plastic cover against the water ..... the cover is protecting both belts - of course a snapped acc. belt is not dramatic at all - you don't have engine damage - just the battery will not charge anymore, you will not have power steering, ...

Thx!

regards / Peter

[Sivvy]

Had my Ulysse 2.0JTD timing belt replaced today at a Fiat franchised dealer.
It was due by age (almost 5 years) rather than mileage (71,000mls, book says 90,000) but after reading of several belt snapping problems here I decided not to take any chances.

Total cost was £470 which included a new water pump and auxilliary belt.
Price breakdown:
Timing belt and idlers £106
Water pump £67 + coolant £21(!)
Auxilliary belt £18
Labour £258 (only about 3 hours, I'd want 3 days...)

I'd already asked them to change the pump as a precaution, and I'm glad I did because it looks like the pump had been seeping from the bearing for a while.
I asked them to save the removed items for me to assess for water damage (dripping, ref Peter's detailed info), see pictures below.
I can't see any obvious damage to the timing belt (other than some scummy residue from the water pump?) but the idlers show a lot of surface rust - although they still feel smooth running.

Anyway, must look at getting the drip tray from Peugeot. Dealer still knew nothing of this problem and solution.

My experience would support the view that the timing belt (and to be safe, pump) should be considered for replacement somewhat sooner than the official 90,000mls interval.

Regards,
Andrew

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by Sivvy

I can't see any obvious damage to the timing belt...

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for sharing this!

No you don't see any obvious damage caused by water to a belt who is not snapped.
Water comes in contact with the metal cords in the belt, by very little hair checks in the rubber of the belt which aren't visible.
I saw my snapped belt last November 2007 and it really looked like new, apart from the fracture surface: there I saw very clear the corroded metal cords....

Also I saw the snapped auxiliary (accessoiry) belt on my 1st C8 and also that belt looked like new (dealer was surprised it broke that soon, after only 80.000km, so he wanted to show me it wasn't his fault he didn't replace the aux. belt during the replacement of the pulley).

As long as you change your cam belt in time, you could think "hmm maybe it was not necessairy already ?!??" - but I quarantee once you witness the snap of your cam belt in plain traffic, on highway, high in the mountains, or ...., you'd wish you changed it in time - it's an awful (and dangerous!) experience. In one second your car is completely out of control, in the middle of the road...
And the bill, when the dealer doesn't want to repair the damage in warranty.....

* On the 2.0HDi 120hp engine PSA still specifies 160.000km for the belts (120.000km in "heavy conditions" which appearently are: taxi use of the car, sandy environment, or >= 50.000km/year).

* On the 2.0HDi 136hp engine PSA specifies 240.000km (180.000km in heavy conditions).

* I don't know for the 2.2HDi 170hp version. Maybe there is an owner of this version who can check in his/her service-book? I think this will be 240.000/180.000km, too.

=> So I'm glad in a way I have the 136hp version now (not the 120hp), but I'll not wait to 240.000km for a belt change I think..... - I hope the belt will hold for the period of time I'll drive the car (first 150.000km anyway).


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[Sivvy]

Originally Posted by Peter1

No you don't see any obvious damage caused by water to a belt who is not snapped.
Water comes in contact with the metal cords in the belt, by very little hair checks in the rubber of the belt which aren't visible.
I saw my snapped belt last November 2007 and it really looked like new, apart from the fracture surface: there I saw very clear the corroded metal cords....
Then I think I will cut the belt open and inspect for damage, may be interesting? - Will report back.


Also I saw the snapped auxiliary (accessoiry) belt on my 1st C8 and also that belt looked like new (dealer was surprised it broke that soon, after only 80.000km, so he wanted to show me it wasn't his fault he didn't replace the aux. belt during the replacement of the pulley).
Unfortunately my dealer didn't give me my old auxiliary belt so I can't inspect that (hope they changed it - it's difficult to tell )


* On the 2.0HDi 136hp engine PSA specifies 240.000km (180.000km in heavy conditions).
How on earth do they think it should be ok for 240.000km? Is it a different construction I wonder? In any case that will make it difficult to justify changing it 'early' if that means 140.000km earlier, when many people will begin to feel it may need doing. That is a lot of km wondering about how much longer to risk leaving it!

Regards,
Andrew

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by Sivvy

Then I think I will cut the belt open and inspect for damage, may be interesting? - Will report back. Absolutely! I'm very curious to see the inside of your 'old' cam belt.

Unfortunately my dealer didn't give me my old auxiliary belt so I can't inspect that (hope they changed it - it's difficult to tell )
I think when you payed for it, they've changed it (for that low price they will not cheat).

How on earth do they think it should be ok for 240.000km? Is it a different construction I wonder?
Our fist son just finished his studies bachelor "auto technology" (he'll continu for master "automotive engineering") and he tells me: "The quality of the belts is improving continuously", so theoretically it is not impossible.

Furthermore, 240.000km is used already a couple of years on the smaller HDI engines like the 1.4, and I also think on the 1.6.

In any case that will make it difficult to justify changing it 'early' if that means 140.000km earlier, when many people will begin to feel it may need doing. That is a lot of km wondering about how much longer to risk leaving it!
Well, obviously / probably not "per definition".


Regards,
Andrew

Interesting link: Timing Belt

I wondered, why the 120hp version has it's cam belt interval at 160k/120k km, and the 136hp version at 240k/180k km - well in this link there is the answer: appearently this depends on whether or not the engine has a FAP.

Peter

[Sivvy]

I got confirmation from the dealer today - they didn't change the aux belt!
I'm sure they were not trying to cheat, but there was an error when passing the job sheet to the technician - they charged for the part but didn't tell him to fit one.
Car going back on Friday to have it done (no charge of course). Maybe they'll even wash it again!

Interesting link, thanks.

Regards,
Andrew

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by Sivvy

I got confirmation from the dealer today - they didn't change the aux belt!
I'm sure they were not trying to cheat, but there was an error when passing the job sheet to the technician - they charged for the part but didn't tell him to fit one.

must have been a very young or unexperienced technician - normally every technician should know that the aux. belt is changed too when changing the cam belt.....

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by Sivvy

Then I think I will cut the belt open and inspect for damage, may be interesting? - Will report back.

Already had some time to inspect your old cam belt?

[Werner807HDI]

Originally Posted by Peter1

must have been a very young or unexperienced technician - normally every technician should know that the aux. belt is changed too when changing the cam belt.....

Definitely not!

Tell me one reason to do this!

If the aux belt is good, why to change it?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Werner807HDI

Definitely not!

Tell me one reason to do this!

If the aux belt is good, why to change it?

because of the price - look here:

Originally Posted by Sivvy

Total cost was £470 which included a new water pump and auxilliary belt.
Price breakdown:
Timing belt and idlers £106
Water pump £67 + coolant £21(!)
Auxilliary belt £18
Labour £258 (only about 3 hours, I'd want 3 days...)

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by Fred

because of the price - look here:

Indeed, because of the price . And because of the fact that that belt is getting used over time as well, so that it can snap too.

And when the auxiliairy belt snaps, this is not a disaster but I can tell you (I had this on my 1st C8) it's not a pleasure because the car is not or hardly drive-able anymore !

Take only the power steering which is not working anymore (you almost can't steer anymore), the battery isn't charging anymore (so imagine you are in the dark, with the lights of the car on, and still a long trip to do... ).

I was very lucky that it happened on the parking of our company, when starting the engine to drive home in the evening.
So I called the road service, who carried away my car to the nearest Citroën garage (which of course was closed already) and the next morning the belt was replaced there.

Let's say this: at least I don't know of any situation where an aux. belt is not changed while the cam belt is .


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[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter1

Indeed, because of the price . And because of the fact that that belt is getting used over time as well, so that it can snap too.

And when the auxiliairy belt snaps, this is not a disaster but I can tell you (I had this on my 1st C8) it's not a pleasure because the car is not or hardly drive-able anymore !

Take only the power steering which is not working anymore (you almost can't steer anymore), the battery isn't charging anymore (so imagine you are in the dark, with the lights of the car on, and still a long trip to do... ).

I was very lucky that it happened on the parking of our company, when starting the engine to drive home in the evening.
So I called the road service, who carried away my car to the nearest Citroën garage (which of course was closed already) and the next morning the belt was replaced there.

Let's say this: at least I don't know of any situation where an aux. belt is not changed while the cam belt is .


.

correct - to provide is better than to repair

[SoWeezy]

Originally Posted by macscouse

My cam belt snapped at 72000 miles ( 96000K ) although Fiat recommend changing at 96000 miles.
The repair bill is around £12000 ... more than the car is worth !!

what were they doing for £12k ?

surely it would have been a LOT cheaper to buy a recon engine ?
there should be plenty around by now

[pmasl]

Originally Posted by Sivvy

* On the 2.0HDi 136hp engine PSA specifies 240.000km (180.000km in heavy conditions).
How on earth do they think it should be ok for 240.000km? Is it a different construction I wonder? In any case that will make it difficult to justify changing it 'early' if that means 140.000km earlier, when many people will begin to feel it may need doing. That is a lot of km wondering about how much longer to risk leaving it!

Regards,
Andrew

Simple, all new PSA HDi and Fiat Multijet engines now use a timing chain (much like the ones on common bicycles) instead of timing belts (rubber reinforced with steel wires).
Tthat's why the replacement can be done much later. On my wifes Fiat Idea, it's will be done on the 200000 kms mark. I think it's great that a method used over 20 years ago is coming back, more reliable and less costly

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by pmasl

Simple, all new PSA HDi and Fiat Multijet engines now use a timing chain (much like the ones on common bicycles) instead of timing belts (rubber reinforced with steel wires).
Tthat's why the replacement can be done much later. On my wifes Fiat Idea, it's will be done on the 200000 kms mark. I think it's great that a method used over 20 years ago is coming back, more reliable and less costly

Hmmm..... I'm sure about the 1.3 jtd having a chain, but the 1.9 jtd's to my opinion still have belts, as the HDi engines really still have, too.

The Renault 2.0 dCi engines now have chains again. Maybe that's what you are confused about.

Chains certainly have their advantages, but the timing of a modern common rail turbodiesel is that precise (power, and environmental standards) that when a chain gets used (valve timing verly slightly out of phase), the engine will pollute more and will lose some power.

That's wat my son tells me (student automotive engineering).

A belt appears to be better in this context, but needs replacement in time.... on the other hand belts seem to get better and better in quality, too.

I hope, because I really don't know already what to do with my new P807 when they specify a cam belt change at only 240.000km.....

.