Cam Belt Replacement

[paulmc]

Jut came accross this website today.

Driving my 04 C8 2.0 HDi yesterday when the car stopped. I have 64ooo miles on it. Towed by Cirtoen Dealer back to garage. Just found out Cam Belt is broken. Citroen Ireland have asked for full service history and photos from garage. They said they had never come accross this problem before!!
I wait for a phone call to see if it will be fixed

[FuliHdi]

Originally Posted by Peter1

Chains certainly have their advantages ...
That's wat my son tells me (student automotive engineering).
A belt appears to be better in this context, but needs replacement in time....

This reasoning leads to a simple idea: why not use chains, but replace them in shorter intervals (before timing degradation) - as if they were belts? .... this means no gain regarding service intervals but no risk destroying the engine
Rgds Bor

[jof]

Originally Posted by Peter1

Chains certainly have their advantages, but the timing of a modern common rail turbodiesel is that precise (power, and environmental standards) that when a chain gets used (valve timing verly slightly out of phase), the engine will pollute more and will lose some power.

A belt appears to be better in this context, but needs replacement in time.... on the other hand belts seem to get better and better in quality, too.

I hope, because I really don't know already what to do with my new P807 when they specify a cam belt change at only 240.000km.....

Thanks for pointing this out. The car manufacturer Hans Glas (now belonging to BMW, maybe you remember the Goggomobil, Isar, 1304, 1700, V8 and others) was one of the first using belts instead of chains. And believe me, there are more reasons for using belts instead of chains.

It would be no problem for PUG/Fiat to put the changing intervals down to 50.000km, since they charge for the repairs and customers pay.

But what would the customer say? -> "Stupid, I will not buy a car where every 50k I have to put so much money in for changing the belt. I buy brand xxx where the belt lasts 120.000km or more".

And if there are/were/is a certain percentage of failure, they will put down those intervals (and/or search for reasons why this happens so early).

Of course everyone who had/has this damage might say "it is enough that mine snapped". But the automobile companies have to think different...

Regards Jörg

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by paulmc

Jut came accross this website today.

Driving my 04 C8 2.0 HDi yesterday when the car stopped. I have 64ooo miles on it. Towed by Cirtoen Dealer back to garage. Just found out Cam Belt is broken. Citroen Ireland have asked for full service history and photos from garage. They said they had never come accross this problem before!!
I wait for a phone call to see if it will be fixed

And the next case........ hope everything will turn out to be not too expensive, for you... !!

If you have any questions, don't hesitate - pleased to try to reply - of course you can search the forum completely but that could be a time consuming job.... .

Originally Posted by jof

Thanks for pointing this out. The car manufacturer Hans Glas (now belonging to BMW, maybe you remember the Goggomobil, Isar, 1304, 1700, V8 and others) was one of the first using belts instead of chains. And believe me, there are more reasons for using belts instead of chains.
Happy to learn can you tell more about this?

It would be no problem for PUG/Fiat to put the changing intervals down to 50.000km, since they charge for the repairs and customers pay.

But what would the customer say? -> "Stupid, I will not buy a car where every 50k I have to put so much money in for changing the belt. I buy brand xxx where the belt lasts 120.000km or more".
You're completely right, because that was, years ago, one of the reasons for me not to buy a VW Sharan or Seat Alhambra (or Ford Galaxy at that moment) because the time belt of the 1.9TDi's needed replacement every 60.000km and later on every 90.000km, and costing a lot more compared to replacement on the HDi engine (120.000km on my Fiat Ulysse I).

And if there are/were/is a certain percentage of failure, they will put down those intervals (and/or search for reasons why this happens so early).
Indeed, as my former Citroën garage did, by hanging notes on the walls that timing belts on all HDi engines needed exchange after 120.000km - and I've heard other messages that they now specify 100.000km.

Of course everyone who had/has this damage might say "it is enough that mine snapped". But the automobile companies have to think different...
Also that is understandable. And accidentally a timing belt can have a failure, causing it to snap even really fast, as my friend told me on an Audi A6 TDi (he was working at VAG, at that moment).

Regards Jörg

Nevertheless - as I've explained, and showed with some pictures earlier in this thread, the problem is well known at PSA and on the newer HDi engines there is moisture protection mounted on the engine "from factory" with a tubing to below the engine, just above street-level.

So I think (and hope!! ) the chance for having a snapped timing belt on EV2 is reduced significantly.

Originally Posted by FuliHdi

This reasoning leads to a simple idea: why not use chains, but replace them in shorter intervals (before timing degradation) - as if they were belts? .... this means no gain regarding service intervals but no risk destroying the engine

Rgds Bor

I think I have read somewhere that a chain exchange is very expensive, because it's not only the chain but a lot of other parts to, like all the gears over which the chain is running.... (compare it with your (racing)bicycle when the chain needs replacement: the gears need replacement too otherwise the new chain won't last long).

Regards / Peter

[paulmc]

4 weeks later and no news on my car. Citrtoen Ireland say it is out of warranty and not their problem. Garage is still looking for a new engine off them

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by paulmc

4 weeks later and no news on my car....

My goodness....... what when you need your car every day??

An experienced garage can remove injectors carefully and replace cam belt - removing corroded injectors is a hell of a job but executeable - replacing cam belt and valve rockers isn't that hard.......

[paulmc]

My garage has given me a new C4 to use at no cost until this problem is fixed i hope. They think Citroen shoudl replace the engine and tell me to be patient,

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by paulmc

My garage has given me a new C4 to use at no cost until this problem is fixed i hope. They think Citroen shoudl replace the engine and tell me to be patient,

C4 at no cost - at least good service from your garage !!

Yes indeed because of the corroded injector problem PSA is changing the complete engine in some cases with snapped cam belt.

Good luck!!

[paulmc]

I hope they will fix this without cost. I will i think sell the car. Its great to drive but too many problems. I have it one year after owning 2 Synergies, 96 and 99.

Since buying it from Citroen Dealer October 2007
2 new sliding door motors
New wiring loom for towbar
new engineproteciton cover
sliding doors making rattle.. garage could not fic but i did with duck tape on window motor mount
seatbelts do not rewind fully
rear suspension rattles
sliding doors do not always close
fuel lines leak and replaced

Enough for me.
I think a small car for the future

[Peter1]

I think EV2 is only +/- reliable starting from 2005........ - my 1st C8 (2003) had plenty of pbl's too, my 2nd C8 (2005) "just" a snapped cam belt.

My current P807 (2008) seems to be OK (almost done 11.000km) - for the moment I still need an MPV for the family, but in the future I'll go back to an Estate again (as I always had before my Ulysse I - same as your Synergies).

Opel Vectra (Insignia) break or Passat Variant will do the next job quite well, I hope....

[ArgieBee2]

Paulmc, I wonder if printing off and showing the garage Peter1's pdf:
http://www.eurovan2.com/forum/attach...kje-engels.pdf
will give them some leverage with Citroen.

And making Citroen aware that you know about part 8248.71 and the premature cambelt failures might make them more helpful?

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by ArgieBee2

And making Citroen aware that you know about part 8248.71 and the premature cambelt failures might make them more helpful?

It never hurts trying

[paulmc]

Yes, I have a meeting wiht the garage on Monday morning so i will print off this image and show them. I think the problem is though not mand C8 cars in Ireland

[Peter1]

Originally Posted by paulmc

Yes, I have a meeting wiht the garage on Monday morning so i will print off this image and show them. I think the problem is though not mand C8 cars in Ireland

And, how did it turn out, your garage visit?

You mean "mandatory"? I think when your dealer is honest (and competent / experienced), they'll admit this is a known pbl on EV2 and they'll help you where-ever they can, to keep you happy as customer...

Success!
Peter

[FuliHdi]

Originally Posted by Peter1

I think when your dealer is honest (and competent / experienced), they'll admit this is a known pbl on EV2 and they'll help you where-ever they can, to keep you happy as customer...

Hi,
I am not sure that this this problem is forwarded to all EV2 dealers. When having my cam belt raplaced this summer I asked a renown Fiat garage about it, they checked their notice database and found nothing, even could not find any part nuber for any "water-collecting-tray" I was asking for (I am sure they would try to sell me one if they could). When I bought this via the Peugeot part number (thanks to Peter) and handed it over, they tried to find the corresponding Fiat part, but no match was found. They also stated that they never heard of this problem hapening to Ulysse or Phedra (which they service) or never had such a case. I suppose one has to consider the "market share" - where here in Slovenia you find much more C8 & 807 vehicles than Phedras & Ulysses, plus the all over quantities are small because of the small market .... I do not know about Ireland, but maybe the C8 is not a very common car there and not every garage is aware of the problem?
Rgds Bor