Where to put the better tyres

[nygaala]

Originally Posted by Werner807HDI

Not from me! I learned it! I am a mechanic!

Well, then it must be right, mustn't it? Please show me just one serious tyre manufacturer or car club who recommends putting the better tyres in front! Normally, experts reach different conclusions but on this one they don't seem to ...

Lars

[Werner807HDI]

Originally Posted by nygaala

Well, then it must be right, mustn't it? Please show me just one serious tyre manufacturer or car club who recommends putting the better tyres in front! Normally, experts reach different conclusions but on this one they don't seem to ...

Lars

In fact:
I spoke from the forced axle. I always mount the better tyres on the forced axle.

How often does the usual normal car driver have a driving situation like some of the members are describing here?

I am not a usual normal driver and I never had such a situation.
If you have a front forced axle and it is wet, you will never have a rear swerve!
If you have a rear forced axle and you accelerate during going through a curve you might have a drift, anyway you might have it with a lot of or less tread.

Nowadays nearly every car has many electronical driving assistances, the usual driver does not notice any difference. With this tyre treatment, I and not only me, a lot of customers of my former garage and my family and colleagues and friends doing the same, we always had a good and average economical and safe locomotion.

You will find no tyre manufacturer who confirms this, because they want to sell their products.

[FuliHdi]

Originally Posted by nygaala

... if you don't go below 3 mm, my claim is that you'll have sufficient grip and to me it seems worse to change the balance of the car by raising the front by 7-10 mm.

The 3 mm minimum is useless in heavy rain in the Alps ... the 7mm raise in front is nothing serious comparable to the change when you fully load your EV2 ... the front/back question is interesting and I shall try to get a detailed answer from my uncle who is an expert... until then I definetely agree with Werner, because of a very simple reason:
if you happen to loose grip on the rear tires, most good drivers have a fair chance of keeping the car on the road .... when you drive into a curve, where a tractor left some mud and if your front slips outwards , even the best drivers can hardly do much .... I would pray for as many mm of FRONT tires as possible (speeking for a car with front traction of course).

[DirkS.]

Who needs the better tires on the rear axle? We have ESP for instability issues caused by poor tires on the rear axle! Wen need the good tires on the front axle to have the best grip during acceleration!

[nygaala]

Originally Posted by DirkS.

Who needs the better tires on the rear axle? We have ESP for instability issues caused by poor tires on the rear axle! Wen need the good tires on the front axle to have the best grip during acceleration!

That way they'll end up on the rear axle very soon !

Still I as little inclined to change what has worked well for me as you are, guys!

Lars

[Fred]

Originally Posted by gazonk

Das sieht aber blöd aus wenn der Reservereifen auf einer häßlichen Stahlfelge sitzt...

halb so schlimm - da ich auf allen Reifen Stahlfelgen mit Zierkappen drauf hab fällts gar nicht auf

[gazonk]

Originally Posted by Fred

halb so schlimm - da ich auf allen Reifen Stahlfelgen mit Zierkappen drauf hab fällts gar nicht auf

na dann

Wenn meine Felgen alle gleich wären, hätte ich aber noch ein bisschen Zweifel: Selbst bei symmetrischen Reifen soll man angeblich nicht links <-> rechts wechseln. Deshalb wird auch in einigen Gebrauchsanweisungen empfohlen, den Reservereifen nur auf einer Seite mitrotieren zu lassen. Das habe ich bei unserem vorigen Auto nicht gemacht (obwohl die Felgen da alle gleich waren), weil ja die Reifen dann auf der einen Seite mehr abgenutzt werden als auf der anderen Seite, und das kommt mir gar nicht so günstig vor. Wie machst Du das?

[Ron807]

I have discussed this a few times at a local tyre place and also while attending an advanced driver course.
Eventhough my first view was different, I'm convinced now that the best tyres should be at the back. A few reasons that convinced me are:

- A car with worn front tyres will understeer, a car with bad rear tyres will oversteer (when traction limits are reached). 99% of drivers will be able to correct understeer, but oversteer... not so sure...
- On a FWD car, with the worn tyres at the front you will get an early warning when traction limits are reached (accelerating on icy/wet roads, etc) as the front wheels will start to spin. If the worn tyres are at the back you'll probably find out when it's too late...
- During hard braking the rear tyres keep the car on track, try it on a bike to brake hard with only the front brake. You will only have little control over the bike...

Systems like ESP, ABS and so will ofcourse reduce the risk of understeer/oversteer, but also has it limits. When that limit is reached you'll be happy to have the good tyres at the back

Tried to translate Gasonk's post about swopping left and right tyres... Be carefull with this, as many tyres have a profile that is only suitable for 1 direction. When swapping left/right it means that you could have the tyres traveling in the wrong direction....

[linte]

Originally Posted by DirkS.

Who needs the better tires on the rear axle? We have ESP for instability issues caused by poor tires on the rear axle! Wen need the good tires on the front axle to have the best grip during acceleration!

[jof]

Originally Posted by linte

Der Verkehrsplaner nennt das "Risikokompensation". Je sicherer die Autos werden und desto mehr von diesen Helferlein an Bord sind, desto risikoreicher wird/fährt der Nutzer (nicht falsch verstehen, das ist nicht negativ gemeint und soll nicht mit "unvernünftig" verwechselt werden).

Ab und an mal merke ich den Effekt, wenn Bekannte einen meiner alten VW fahren. Da hat man bei Tempo 130 nämlich beide Hände am Steuer und ist voll konzentriert. Und wenn man aus diesem Tempo herunterbremsen muß, und man genau merkt zu welchem Zeitpunkt jede der 4 Trommelbremsen "kommt", erlebt man ein ganz anderes Geschwindigkeits- und Fahrgefühl. Naja, die meisten sind schon vorgewarnt wenn sie feststellen, daß der VW gar keine Sicherheitsgurte hat und kommen kaum in Versuchung, auf dieser Grundlage in irgendwelche Grenzbereiche vorzustoßen...

Gruß Jörg

[Colin]

This is a difficult question. I have 30 years of experience and still cannot say I am an expert, so I follow the expert's advice and have the best tyres at the rear. However, when I am on a wet road at high speed I often wonder whether the excellent ABS would be even better if I had more tyre tread depth on the front in an emergency.
My son has a car with no ABS, I worry even more about this 'rule' for him because in my experience I've had more 'near accidents' in a straight line than when going around a corner. I agree that it is more difficult to control a car that loses rear wheel grip, but statistically, how many more times would extra front grip be a benefit?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by jof

Ab und an mal merke ich den Effekt, wenn Bekannte einen meiner alten VW fahren. Da hat man bei Tempo 130 nämlich beide Hände am Steuer und ist voll konzentriert. Und wenn man aus diesem Tempo herunterbremsen muß, und man genau merkt zu welchem Zeitpunkt jede der 4 Trommelbremsen "kommt", erlebt man ein ganz anderes Geschwindigkeits- und Fahrgefühl. Naja, die meisten sind schon vorgewarnt wenn sie feststellen, daß der VW gar keine Sicherheitsgurte hat und kommen kaum in Versuchung, auf dieser Grundlage in irgendwelche Grenzbereiche vorzustoßen...

Gruß Jörg

genial, einfach nur genial

[FuliHdi]

Hi,

As said I have discussed this issue with my family expert, here are the basic conclusions:

1. All 4 tyres are significant, so keep changing front & back wheels so they are worn out evenly.

2. Otherwise mount the better tyres on the front axle. Reasoning is fairly simple:

Originally Posted by Ron807

- A car with worn front tyres will understeer, a car with bad rear tyres will oversteer (when traction limits are reached).

True.

99% of drivers will be able to correct understeer, but oversteer... not so sure...

False. Once the car slips, 90% of the drivers will not do anything but wait till it's over, be it understeer or oversteer. 99% in case of women drivers, but they are statistically insignificantly inclined to ditching a car as men are ...

Most fatal slips occur in a curve. If the front slips outwards, 99% of the drivers will end in the ditch. The remaing 1% will apply parallel moderate brake+accelaration with limited additional steering to remain on the road. In case the back slips, with no driver reaction, many drivers will end in the ditch, but you still have a fair chance of remaining on the road after a 180 or 360 degree turn.

During hard braking the rear tyres keep the car on track, try it on a bike to brake hard with only the front brake. You will only have little control over the bike... .

True. But compare a front tyre slip to back tyre slip on a bike ...

Originally Posted by Colin

However, when I am on a wet road at high speed I often wonder whether the excellent ABS would be even better if I had more tyre tread depth on the front in an emergency.

Correct.


Rgds Bor

[Colin]

This topic led to a very interesting and long office conversation and changed some people's opinions. The conclusion after seeing the video in this link that someone found:
Changing Tires: Tire Basics: Tire Care & Buying Guide: Michelin Tires
and even more discussion was - fit new tyres to the rear.

In normal driving you will begin to feel the front tyres losing grip (wet or dry) and can usually consider this as a warning and slow down, therefore avoiding an accident. If the rear tyres have less grip, they can go before the front with less warning, and a rear skid takes more skill to control. The less driving experience, the greater the risk.

In an emergency, it might be better to have more grip on the front tyres but if the car became unbalanced or was going around a bend/corner, once again, the rear tyres need to have more grip for reasons stated above. On a dry road, it was thought that the difference would be very small.

The subject of greater traction/grip for acceleration or starting on a muddy field was quickly dropped because this was 'convenience' not safety.

What will I do? I will continue fitting the best tyres to the rear and slow down in the wet if I begin to worry !

[FuliHdi]

Originally Posted by Colin

In normal driving you will begin to feel the front tyres losing grip (wet or dry) and can usually consider this as a warning and slow down, therefore avoiding an accident.

This is very true !

It turns out there is no simple decision which alternative is the best. Also not valid for all cars alike - the weight is crucial. My first car was a 2CV, ultra-light at the rear, in 130K km lost rear grip 4 times (always on wet snow), 2 times damped the swaying, the other two ended in spins, in all 4 good luck - no traffic & no damage. Driving heavier cars changed my statistics: in 500K km lost front grip 5 times (1x wet, 1x scattered mud, 1x autumn leaves, 2x snow/ice, never dry), 4x remained "on road" (+/- 1m, but not always on my lane!), 1x smashed the bumber. All events at low speeds (30-60 km/h).
I switch front/rear tyres twice a year and try to keep them as equally "worn-out" as possible.
Rgds Bor